Discussion
J. W. Glen: I recognize that there are great complications in special cases; however, there are situations which are different from each other and for which it is worth finding a terminology to express the difference, as is the case for polar, sub-polar and temperate glaciers. This is surely helpful (e.g. for school textbooks). Just because there are blurred boundaries we do not cease to use the concepts of solid, liquid, and gas (for example, because such things as bouncing putty exist)!
For our purposes, however, it seems undesirable to try to categorize a large glacier which has various zones. Is it not beLter to follow Benson and discuss facies so that one glacier has various facies at various levels—and may have relics of other facies deeper down?
M. M. Miller: Thank you for your comment that blurred boundaries need not preclude generalization of categories. As for the polythermal category, it is suggested only for general reference, and specifically in cases where insufficient information is in hand to delineate facies. Certainly the polythermal term must connote the existence of thermal or even water-content facies, and in the definition this should be well explained.
If we back up for a moment and look at this in a broader context , we can be reminded that the facies concept has been widely applied in geology, especially stratigraphy, for the handling of lateral, and to some extent vertical, changes in the lithologic character of sandstones, shales, limestones, etc. Such facies changes have considerable environmental significance with respect to provenance of the elastics involved. So, traditionally, I have had little difficulty in applying the environmental rationale to the thermal and physical “stratigraphy” of glaciers. Therefore, as in geology where the recognition and classification of rock facies do not vitiate reference to the main lithologic unit, why not in glaciology use a term which is applicable to the whole glacier unit, especially if one of our other suggested categories docs not readily apply? In other words, if there is not a dominantly polar or dominantly temperate situation, call it polythermal, with all of the environmental, geophysical and orographical connotations. Such an application would simply recognize that indeed the unit comprises a whole system of facies, which actually is quite complex. (The separate identification of facies would then be left as a study in itself.) Perhaps one refinement could be to apply the polythermal terms only to those cases which bridge the full range from polar to temperate, and not use it where the thermal range is less.
Again the aim has been to suggest a relatively simple classification, one which tries to remain consistent with previous terms yet which hopefully succeeds in identifying the dominant thermal character of the glacier system as a whole. If complications and uncertainties do not warrant this, then of course the segmental or facies concept could be more rigorously applied. And so the plea is not to overcomplicate the situation but, instead, through a rationally induced classification, to improve communication between scientists on these seemingly simple but at heart rather complex matters.
L. Lliboutry: We need different classifications according to the goal in view. (For instance for case histories, an alphabetical classification would be the best one.) Thus I favour two distinct classifications: one, for studies of mass balance, relations with meteorology, etc., according to the thermal conditions in the firn (as developed by Shumskiy, F. Müller and others, etc.); and another, for glacier dynamics, where the bulk of the glacier (not the firn or a superficial thin layer getting cold in winter) is considered; namely, a temperate glacier with liquid water in it, and cold glaciers with a cold glacier bedrock interface (no sliding), with a glacier-bedrock interface at the melting point, and with a temperate layer at the bottom. (I doubt whether this last case is Lagally’s transitional glacier.)
Miller: There certainly may be merit in some kinds of climatologically related studies to consider the firn pack as a separate entity from the main underlying mass of glacial ice, but I have endeavoured to avoid invoking unusual complications in the terminology. Instead, I have followed the idea of a classification which can connote mutually affected characteristics of both the firn pack and its underlying ice as a stress-influenced total system. (The stress here could BE climatological or kinetic, or both.) As for strict considerations in glacier dynamics the main interest would be in deformation and mass transfer of the deep ice. I believe that the suggested classification does indeed lend itself to this, with any pertinent subsidiary characteristics, say in the bottom zone, being best considered not by single terminology but by appropriate modifying comments to be appended to the framework categories of the suggested classification.
G. K. C. Clarke: I would like to speak on behalf of preserving a certain vagueness in terminology. It seems to me that the use of highly specific terms to describe the thermal structure of a glacier can be abused to imply that you have more information than your measurements support.
Miller: I agree, to the extent that the classification which I have discussed does retain a certain desired looseness. As for implying more information than one has, this danger is implicit in the use of any descriptive phraseology. There will always be a need for scientific integrity in any reporting endeavour. But I am not too concerned about the danger of muddying the scientific waters too much here because after all the presentation of facts is what is judged. Perhaps if we are not sure at all of what the thermal character of a glacier system is we could indeed call it “crypto-thermal’’!