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Commons' Debates in 1625.

Published online by Cambridge University Press:  04 January 2010

Extract

A place was made in the Upper House for the Duke [Chevreuse] the Frenche Ambassador, who with his Ladye and divers other freinds, lords and ladyes, were present to see the solemnity of the first daye.

His MAJESTIE begana with a profession of his owne want of abillitye to speake, but that the business of this meetinge needed it not, beinge began in his father's tyme, when both hee (as an intersessor) was ingaged by us, and wee by a liberall declaracion ingaged ourselves, soe that it would be a dishonor to him and to us not to perfect it, by yeildinge such supply as the greatness of the worke and variety of provision did require; this hee spake not out of diffidence, but to shew his sence of the publick interest, for hee knew our zeale to religion, our machless fidelity and love to our Kinge (the ancient honor of this nation), and that hee for his part would bee as forward to dispose all his meanes to the common good and defence of the realme, as hee doubted not wee would be forward to ayde him.

Type
Debates in the House of Commons in 1625
Copyright
Copyright © Royal Historical Society 1873

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References

page 001 note a Lords' Journals, iii. 435.

page 001 note b Lords' Journals iii. 438.

page 002 note a “Malusntore ” MS. In the Lords' Journals (iii. 436) it stands, Amor civium regiminis munimentum. Mead says the legend on some of the coins was to be Amor civium, Regis presidium. Court and Times of Charles I. i. 11. The form ultimately adopted was Amor populi presidium Regis.

page 002 note b Are relata simul natura, MS.

page 003 note a Thomas Crewe.

page 004 note a mee, MS.

page 004 note b “as,” MS.

page 005 note a ? Confederate.

page 005 note b Referring to Mansell's expedition to Algiers in 1620.

page 006 note a Receiver of the Court of Wards.

page 006 note b On Sunday next. C. J. i. 799.

page 007 note a Banbury.

page 007 note b i. e. One in execution.

page 007 note c “Sir Ro. Phillippes secondeth the motion:— Yet considerable whether this time fit to receive petitions against Courts of Justice, &c. For Mr. Mallory his motion;—rare at the beginning of a Parliament to petition to be put off; but consider now of the danger of the plague with other circumstances, and it will be very considerable whether not fit to petition the King to defer the Parliament to some other time or place.” C. J. i. 800. These two reports are all that we hare, both Eliot's MS. and A. omitting the speech entirely.

The two accounts would be quite reconcileable if we suppose that Philips began jn a somewhat hesitating tone, and then, speaking impromptu, as we know, from Eliot's narrative, his manner was, broke out into a stronger expression of opinion. It is evident that in the text only the latter part of the speech is given, which the official note-taker of the journals, perhaps frightened at the boldness of the language, may have preferred to cut short.

page 007 note d Sir Robert Heath. There must be a mistake either in the najne of the speaker, or in the word ” confirmed.”

page 008 note a Edward Alford sat again for Colchester in this Parliament, though his name is omitted in Willis's Notitia Parliamentaria. There was also a William Alford member for Beverley; but as Edward Alford was made Sheriff of Sussex in the following winter to exclude him from the next Parliament, and as one of the speeches at Oxford refers distinctly to knowledge of the Parliament of 1624 in which William Alford did not sit, we may safely ascribe all the speeches given in the text to the more noted bearer of the name. If the other had spoken, the notetaker would doubtless have added some distinguishing epithet.

According to the journals, “Mr. Alford moveth for a Committee of the whole House to consider of the course fit to be holden, both for King and Kingdom.”

page 008 note b “Sir G. More moveth the former motions may be considered of till to-morrow, and then be further debated.” C. J. i. 800.

page 008 note c In a report (Harl. MSS. 161, fol. 59) which extends only to this day's proceedings, the important debate on Mallory's motion is given thus: “Mr. Mallorie mooved that the house would petition the King to have the Parliament adjonrned presentlie, by reason of the pestilence still increasing. But this motion was snddenlie dashed for manye reasons. 1. The state of Christendome depended somewhat upon that assemblie, and if the opportunitie were now lost perhapps it would never againe bee regained. 2 It would bee inconvenient that manye members of that howse comming from the remotest partes of the kingdome, and for the most part all of them having laien in towne since the first summons, moore or lesse time, for this meeting, should presentlie upon it dissolve to noe purpose without doing any thing. 3. This overthrew all this morning's worKe; for then all the matters alreadie agitated of the publike and private fast weere like to come to noe effect. 4. The King's present necessities. Sir Robert Heath added that this sicknes at home was the hande of God; but to breake offe without anye thing done weere to give advantage to the enemie abroad, and the malecontent and evill hearted at home. Hee had rather therfore, in the wordes of David, to fall into the handes of God then men.”

page 009 note a By Sir Thomas Hoby, on which Alford advised “to have a Committee to consider of what course we shall take in all business this Parliament” (C. J. i. 800), persisting, in fact, in his motion of the day before.

page 011 note a Rudyerd's connection was rather with Pembroke. He now sat for Portsmouth, of the castle of which Pembroke was captain, and he may very likely hare received instructions from him both now and in the preceding Parliament.

page 012 note b In the Journals, Rudyerd is followed by Sir J. Eliot, “No particular or private business to be entertained. A special Committee to regulate the business of this House.” Mr. Forster (Sir J. Eliot, i. 245) introduces Pym as unexpectedly asking, after Rudyerd sat down, “what, in the event of the Committee for Grievances being dispensed with for the present, they proposed to do as to the Committees for Religion. * * * There was no getting rid of either Committees after that.” For Pym's intervention I have been unable to find any authority in Eliot's MS. or elsewhere, and it is certain that the Committee for Grievances was not appointed.

page 012 note a Mr. Delbridge is not mentioned in the Journals till afterwards, where he is said to have seconded Philips's motion. Bulstrode, the member for Buckinghamshire, has there the part here attributed to Delbridge. Wentworth then follows for a Committee for Grievances, and Mallet wishes the laws executed against the priests, but sees no cause to petition for it. Sir G. More's speech, which comes next, is not quite clear. Seymour's speech is given more fully in the Journals. “1. Our duty to God; 21y King and Kingdom, which cannot be severed no more than head and body. To petition the King ; the lawes against Jesuits, priests, &c. may be put in execution; and to restrain the resort to Ambassadors' houses and other places to mass. That fit to supply the King; to have a Committee to consider of religion, and of this supply.”

page 012 note b In the Journals, Philips simply says: “Not yet timely for a Committee for religion and supply to think of the propositions made till to-morrow; then to have a Committee of the whole House, to debate and resolve of a fitting course to be holden in our consultations and resolutions, for religion and for the King and Kingdom.” The discrepancy between these two reports is the same as that between the two reports of his speech of the day before. I would suggest the same explanation. See p 7, note.

page 013 note a “Not now meddling with other impositions,” according to the Journals, making it highly probable that Philips did say that which was omitted by the Journals. “A Committee of the whole House was the next morning to consider of all the aforesaid propositions and of whatsoever else shall be offered.” Solicitor-General Heath subsequently announced that the King would answer the grievances of the last Parliament whenever the House pleased. C. J. i. 801.

page 013 note b From this point there is a blank in the Journals till the 4th of July.

page 015 note a Knights, A. Knight in MS.

page 015 note b So A. “the Priests ” in MS.

page 016 note a Sir Humphrey May.

page 016 note b Sir Eobert Heath.

page 017 note a Sir Richard Weston.

page 017 note b Viscount Mandeville.

page 017 note c John Williams, Bishop of Lincoln.

page 018 note a The Petitions on Religion.

page 018 note b “That whensoever it should please God to bestow upon him any lady that were Popish, she should have no further liberty but for her own family, and no advantage to the recusants at home.” Commons' Journals, i. 756.

page 018 note c It can hardly be anyone else.

page 018 note d Differing from those ultimately adopted. The chief alterations are pointed out in the notes.

page 019 note a This reference to the King's promise given in 1624, was omitted afterwards.

page 020 note a Altogether omitted afterwards.

page 021 note a The charge against Dr. Anyan was subsequently omitted, doubtless as being included in the petition of 1624, to which an answer was still expected.

page 021 note b This subsequently became, “to advise the Bishops, by fatherly treatment and tender usage, to reduce to the peaceable and orderly service of the Church such able ministers as have been formerly silenced, that there may be a profitable use of their ministry in these needful and dangerous times.”

page 021 note c The clause about the Bill and the House of Lords was afterwards omitted.

page 022 note a proceedeth. MS.

page 022 note b This and the next section were afterwards omitted.

page 022 note c This section was omitted.

page 023 note a The remainder of this section was afterwards omitted.

page 024 note a The remainder of this section was afterwards omitted.

page 024 note b The final clause was afterwards omitted.

page 024 note c The clause relating to Foster was omitted.

page 026 note a Bishop King.

page 027 note a persu, MS.

page 027 note b excolunter, MS.

page 028 note a Blank in MS.

page 028 note b The Earl of Pembroke.

page 029 note a Reynolds.

page 029 note b Perhaps Thomas Brightman. See Neal, ii. 06.

page 029 note c The clause about Dr. Anyan was subsequently omitted.

page 029 note d i. e. Westminster Abbey.

page 030 note a Blank in MS.

page 030 note b Rudverd.

page 031 note a This is certainly right, in point of fact. In Eliot's Narrative it is “many millions of treasure,” which is a gross exaggeration.

page 032 note a Perhaps “wee will eyer.”

page 032 note b i. e. Six fifteens.

page 033 note a The New Gag for an Old Goose.

page 035 note a Appello Cæsarem.

page 037 note a Sir Humphrey May.

page 037 note b Parliamentary History, i. 1489.

page 038 note a Eor making collections for charitable purposes.

page 038 note b Constituting them into a separate company.

page 038 note c Sir J. Meldrum.

page 038 note d In purveyance for the Household.

page 039 note a President of Corpus Christi College, Oxford.

page 040 note a So, A. “what” in MS.

page 040 note b Levant and merchants. A, and MS.

page 040 note c Perpetuanoes, A. i. e. perpetuanas, a stuff so called from its enduring quality.

page 041 note a Improved, MS.

page 042 note a Forsker, MS.

page 042 note b Appointed in the Subsidy Act of 1624.

page 042 note c A.

page 043 note a A. poyntes, MS.

page 043 note b The pretermitted customs were first imposed by Mary upon the export of woollen cloths, on the pretext that the customs duty upon the export of wool was evaded by sending out wool in a manufactured state free of duty. It was reimposed by Elizabeth, and again, after some years intermission, by James I. in 1618. (Grant to Nicholson and Morgan. Nov. 4, 1618. Patent Rolls, 16 James I. Part 3.) They therefore differed from the New Impositions as being founded on an interpretation of a grant made by Parliament, whereas the latter were collected without any great pretence. Unless however the Tonnage and Poundage Bill passed into law, the pretermitted customs as well as all other customs would, if collected, be placed on the same basis as the New Impositions, that is to say they would be demanded without Parliamentary authority.

page 044 note a A.

page 044 note b A.

page 044 note c A.

page 045 note a A.

page 046 note a Bishop Neile.

page 047 note a The day of the King's accession.

page 047 note b “as before fol. 22 ” in MS. i. e. p. 35.

page 048 note a Bert, MS.

page 048 note b “Whether any or all subscribed absolutely or with protestation, I cannot toll.” Appello Csesarem, 71.

page 048 note c Balcanqual.

page 049 note a “I am not any way offended with you for your opinion that the Pope is Antichrist; yet much rather might I, because you presume to determine so peremptorily of future contingents. * * * Why should you be angry with me, in such points ofa no assurance, because I do not subscribe unto you? Who concluded it, but yourselves, to be flat Popery not to believe or preach that the Pope is that Antichrist? * * * Some Protestant Divines at home and abroad, I grant, have thought so, wrote so, disputed so; in good zeal, no doubt, against that insolent and insufferable, and outrageous tyranny and pride of the Bishops of Rome, and their infinite enormities in the Church; and as out of that affection have been too violently forward out of conjectures and probabilities to pronounce the Pope is that man of sin and son of perdition. The Synod of Gap in France made it a point of their belief and concluded it peremptorily to be so; and let them and you believe it so if you will. Their inducements do not convince or persuade me. I never yet saw proof or argument brought that was persuasive, much less that was demonstrative in the case. I never yet met with argument or reason to the point but, at least to my own satisfaction, I was able to answer it. If you can give better I am like to yield.”—Appello Csesarem, 142-144

page 049 note b Puritans here means Non-conformists. Montague means Calvinists in doctrine.

page 049 note c “I have learned, loved, admired and proposed unto myself to follow indeclinably not only the discipline of the Church of England (whereunto the Puritans and Schismatics themselves, at least the wiser and sutler sort of them come of roundly now, for ends best known to themselves, remaining quod erant quoad doctrinam et tantiim non in Episcopatn Puritani), but the whole and entire doctrine of that Church, &c. ” Appello Cxesarem, p. 111. Did not Montague simply mean, “only not Puritans in the matter of episcopacy ”?

page 050 note a “I disclaim as incompetent popular cantonings of dismembred Scripture, and private interpretations of enforced Scripture. I will not be put over unto classical decisions, nor that idol of some men's reformation, unto any prophetical determinations in private conventicles after lectures.” Ibid. 8.

page 050 note b “It may be a custom amongst the informers and others of that tribe to dictate to their popular auditories out of their pulpits tanquam de tripode, though it be, quicquid in buccam, and the same to be received upon their bare words as Divine Oracles.” Ibid. 15.

page 050 note c “Though the nature of a soul is not to be circumscriptively in place (as Tertullian fancied) as Mr. Yates and Mr. Ward are when they are in their pulpits, yet are they confined in their proper ubi, &c.” Appello Csesarem, 231.

page 050 note d Ibid. 43.

page 050 note e “Et quamvis præsens hæc Ecclesia Romana non parum in morum et discipline integritate, adde etiam in doctrinse sinceritate, ab antiquâ iliâ unde orta et derivata est, discesserit, tamen eodem fundamento doctrinse, et sacramentorum a Deo institutorum firm semper constitit; et communionem cum antiqua iliâ et indubitatâ Christi Ecclesia agnoscit et colit. Quare alia et diversa ab ilia esse non potest, tametsi multis in rebus dissimilis sit. Manet enim Christi Ecclesia et sponsa quamvis mnltis erroribus et vitiis sponsum suum irritaverit, quamdiu a Christo suo sponso non repudietur, tametsi multis flagellis ab ipso castigetur.”—A New Gag for an Old Goose, p. 50.

page 053 note a This is, I suppose, Heath's speech. Marten said, according to the Journals, “Lest intending to punish him we do him a good turn,” which probably was to the same effect. Mr. Forster (Sir J. Eliot, i. 257) quotes from Eliot's MS. the speech of some one not named, who argued that the House should pause “lest contrary to their meaning it should prove not a punishment but a preferment.” Eliot perhaps allowed his narrative to be coloured by his subsequent knowledge. The turn given to the words in the text corresponds with that given in Pym's report in 1626 in the Appendix.

page 053 note b Cap. 4, in the Articula Itineris, as printed in the Statutes of the Realm, i. 236. “Et similiter de Mis qui vindictam fccerint eo quod si aliqui super predictis graxaminious in Curiâ Domini Regis conquesti fuerint.

page 054 note a Blank in MS. In the journals the name is Wogan, and the Shire is given as Monmouthshire. Wogan however sat for Pembrokeshire, and that this is the County intended is plain from the mention of Sir J. Perrot, who sat for Pembrokeshire in the last Parliament.

page 055 note a Referring to the adjournment over the summer in 1621.

page 055 note b A.

page 055 note c A.

page 057 note a The attack upon Genoa by the Duke of Sayoy and the French.

page 058 note a It should be 30,000l. to the King of Denmark and 20,000l. to Mansfeld.

page 058 note b German.

page 058 note c “by forsakinge his subjects.” MS.

page 060 note a A, “cases,” MS.

page 061 note a Viscount Mandevillc.

page 062 note a So, MS. and A.

page 063 note a A.

page 063 note b A.

page 064 note a A.

page 064 note b A. “Asly,” in MS.

page 065 note a Sir Heneage Finch.

page 065 note b Blank in MS.

page 068 note a As only seven Acts are to be found amongst the Statutes, two of the number given above must have been private Acts.

page 069 note a Commons' Journals, i. 809. “Pla.sc” in MS.

page 070 note a 18 Jac. I.

page 070 note b 21 Jac. I.

page 070 note c Blank in MS.

page 070 note d So A.—overruled by Sir Francis Seymour added.

page 070 note e “Sir Geo. Garrett,” A. Willis gives Sir William Gerard as Member for Middlesex. The return for Middlesex to this Parliament has not been preserved.

page 070 note f So, too, A. But the reference is doubtless to 12 Jac. I. See Commons' Journals, i. 477, 478, 480. Parry, as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, had interfered with elections.

page 070 note g “Alphed ” in MS. and A.

page 071 note a A. “they,” in MS.

page 071 note b This speech is omitted in the Journals, the clerk perhaps thinking it irrelevant.

page 071 note c A.

page 071 note d On the fast day.

page 072 note a A.

page 072 note b Attorney of the Court of Wards.

page 072 note c So, A. “Indicium sequiter priorem vians,” MS.

page 073 note a “About nine of the clock, Mr. Speaker, with the House, attended the King accordingly; and, there staying about two hours, they returned according to the former order.”—Commons' Journals, i. 810.

page 073 note b Lord Conway. In the report in the Lords' Journals (iii. 471), Coke's speech alone is reported, though the words before it appear to imply that the substance of both is given.

page 074 note a “Wherein he said there wanted some thirtie or fourtie thousand pounds to doe the worke; the officers being discredited by the sickness, and without which the fleet could not goe out.”—Eliot, Neg. Post.

page 076 note a The diet summoned to meet at Ulin.

page 080 note a Sir Thomas Edmondes.

page 080 note b Sir John Coke.

page 080 note c Blank in MS.

page 084 note a Rolls of Parliament, iii. 611.

page 084 note b So in MS.

page 085 note a Robert de Bellomonte, Earl of Leicester, brought the office into his family by marriage, in the reign of Henry II.

page 085 note b Blank in MS.

page 088 note a “is.” MS.

page 089 note a “SIR WM. STBODE—against subsidies in reversion—A Committee.” Commons' Journals, i. 811. In the report printed in the Appendix, we have “noe subsidies, but an humble remonstrance.” Perhaps he suggested a special levy npon the rich to be prepared by the Committee.

page 090 note a “Petilacing.” MS.

page 090 note b “Petti-lacinius.” MS.

page 090 note c Perhaps “due.”

page 092 note a Cavendish.

page 093 note a “An act to restrain the grants of writs of habeas corpus,” i.e. for releasing debtors.

page 094 note a i. e. Alexander Baker, a Jesuit.

page 095 note a Printed in Lords' Journals, iii. 479.

page 095 note b Lords' Journals, iii. 381.

page 096 note a March 23, 1624. Lords' Journals, iii. 282.

page 101 note a The letter from Philip IV. to Olivares directing him to break off the match.

page 101 note a The Earl of Bristol.

page 103 note a “For payment wherof his Majesty hath engaged those lands he then had, and those commissioners' bonds,” i.e. bonds of the Commissioners for managing his revenue as Prince of Wales.—Lords' Journals, iii. 484.

page 104 note a Two thousand soldiers were brought over from the Low Countries for the Cadiz expedition, and two thousand newly levied troops sent, by way of Hull, to replace them.

page 104 note b “10,000”, MS.

page 105 note a i.e. and others since his time.

page 105 note b In the Parliament of 1014, 12° Jac.

page 107 note a Sir Robert Naunton.

page 108 note a Blank in MS., filled up by conjecture.

page 108 note b “contrarior ” in MS.

page 110 note a “not ” in MS.

page 110 note b “why we cannot now give; and yet to give him an assurance we will, in due time, supply all his honorable and well-grounded designs.”—C. J. i. 814.

page 111 note a In 1606.

page 112 note a Sir Richard Weston.

page 112 note b Blank in MS.

page 113 note a Blank in MS.

page 113 note b “at this time ” [?]

page 115 note a “Ed.” in MS.

page 115 note b “H.”in MS.

page 117 note a i.e. Soubise.

page 118 note a “they” in MS.

page 120 note a “obrapte ” in MS.

page 120 note b “depune ” in MS.

page 121 note a Of foreign Ambassadors interceding for the pardon of Priests.

page 122 note a “Put ' ” in MS.

page 122 note b Carew.

page 123 note a [?] “contrived.”

page 124 note a “sapare ” in MS.

page 124 note b “his Majestie's Arguments” in MS.

page 126 note a “in ” in MS.